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Ongoing religious scandals

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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The bishop's behaviour may have been legal, but was nonetheless thoroughly unethical and immoral.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The bishop's behaviour may have been legal, but was nonetheless thoroughly unethical and immoral.
    Possibly. Or possibly not. When Moore made his admissions the bishop removed him from ministry and sent him for treatment. Moore never ministered as a priest again. And he has not been accused of, or charged with, any acts of abuse committed after the bishop took these actions.

    Did the bishop report the matter to the authorities? The BBC report is silent about this; you're assuming, I think, that this means he did not. But (a) we don't know that the bishop knew of anything reportable - Moore admitted to tendencies and tempations, but they are not criminal matters. We don't know that Moore admitted to any criminal acts. And (b) some newspaper reports suggest that the did report the matter to police - not immediately, but in 1997. (See here, for example, an Observer article from 2013 which says that Moore was reported to the police in 1997 both by his bishop and by another priest, who was one of his victims.) The police took no action. The matter wasn't pursued by the authorities until it was raised in the Scottish Parliament in 2013.

    I'm quite prepared to believe that the bishop may have behaved disgracefully; there is a pattern of disgraceful behaviour from senior church figures, and it would not be surprising to find him complicit in it. But I haven't seen anything to show that he did behave disgracefully.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    CabanSail wrote: »
    I watched Undeniable last night.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-12/undeniable-the-people-behind-the-child-abuse-royal-commission/9222566

    It's a documentary made about some of the background to the royal commission into child abuse. It was very powerful stuff.

    What shocked me the most was what happened around Ballarat where there seemed to be a large group of peadophile catholic clergy who were protected by the church and also the police. A police officer who tired to act to protect children and was stopped from acting. It was not said in the doco but this was at a time when George Pell was a priest in that area. Apparently he did not know anything about it.
    A court in Australia has reviewed the evidence against George Cardinal Pell - the current Prefect of the Secretariat for the Economy (essentially the Vatican's Minister for Finance) - and found that while there is insufficient evidence for some of the charges laid before the court, there is sufficient evidence for other charges and a trial can therefore proceed. No date has yet been set for this trial.

    Cardinal Pell is the most senior prelate yet arraigned in the Catholic Church's ongoing child-abuse scandal.

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/treated-like-any-other-accused-george-pell-s-life-of-extremes-20180501-p4zcnt.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Rather specific charges, spreading across few decades

    Australia’s most senior Catholic will face charges stemming from allegations of
    “sexual offending at a swimming pool in the 1970s in Ballarat' …
    and at 'St Patrick's Cathedral in Melbourne in 1990s', while he was Archbishop of Melbourne”,
    according to Fairfax Media.

    This not long after another Cardinal (Scotland) was recently denied a proper funeral.

    Is it safe to say ye olde beelzebub has fully infiltrated the CC worldwide, and at all levels, for some time now?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Unauthorised Bishop disgusted by unhygienic practices at the altar of a rural Cork church.


    eTYNxPX.jpg?1

    Whether this is ahem... "an internal matter" between consenting adults has yet to be determined. However no internal church action has been recorded since.
    A source told the Irish Independent that, as the Garda investigation was still ongoing, no internal action has yet been taken.
    https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/mass-continues-to-be-held-at-rural-church-where-sex-act-filmed-36879905.html

    BTW the photo above is purely for entertainment purposes, it does not purport to be from the actual scene.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    "an internal matter"
    ChurchMilitant, the website which seems to have been first to come out (oops!) with the story, suggests that "internal matters" might be a more accurate description of events than one might wish in the circumstances:

    https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/irish-church-scandal-priest-desecrates-altar-with-gay-sex-act

    ChurchMilitant, btw, is run by one Michael Voris, a man who has himself "struggled" with same-sex attraction for decades, so one can only admire the speed with which Mr Vorbis learned of events in Kildorrery, then acquired and publicized the pictures concerned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    34 Chilean bishops have offered to resign following a crisis meeting, for collectivly destroying evidence of sex crimes by the church in their country according to this article.
    ..

    Another day, another country, same story.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Yes, there do seem to be some senior vacancies available in Chile following the leaking of a Vatican report into corruption of varying kinds within the Chilean RCC:

    http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/05/18/every-chilean-bishop-in-rome-resigns/
    Bishops wrote:
    The pope’s text clearly showed a series of absolutely reprehensible acts that have occurred in the Chilean church in relation to those unacceptable abuses of power, of conscience and sexual abuse that have resulted in the lessening of the prophetic vigour that characterized her [...]
    A slightly indirect apology, I'd have thought.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hmmm... I thought the Pope could have any of them demoted anyway, whether they wanted to resign or not? Seems like a farcical publicity stunt.


    Surely the bishops could have tried a more useful public service, like offering to wash the feet of some peasants (in front of the cameras, of course).


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    An Australian archbishop has been found guilty of concealing child sex abuse back in the 1970's after his main defence - his diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease - was thrown out. The archbishop faces a maximum period of two years in jail with sentencing to be carried out at a later time. The archbishop has yet to decide whether to appeal the conviction.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/australia-archbishop-4026979-May2018/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    An Australian archbishop has been found guilty of concealing child sex abuse back in the 1970's after his main defence - his diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease - was thrown out. The archbishop faces a maximum period of two years in jail with sentencing to be carried out at a later time. The archbishop has yet to decide whether to appeal the conviction.
    Today he has "stood aside" from his duties as Archbishop, but he hasn't resigned the post. He'll resign "if at any point in time it becomes necessary or appropriate".

    That might be a straw in the wind suggesting that he intends to appeal; if he's not going to appeal, why not just resign now? But the time for deciding about an appeal doesn't begin to run until after the sentencing hearing, which is set for 19 June. So he may be just keeping his options open.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Closer to these shores, another investigation is on-going
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/concerns-over-northern-ireland-church-handling-of-safeguarding-claim-36937553.html

    Dromore Diocese which has already been slated as 'unfit for purpose', sees a Canon stand down after a fresh complaint.
    Police said they are investigating an allegation made to them in April, and that it would be inappropriate to comment further (ongoing).

    BBC's Nolan Show and a Spotlight documentary exposed this Diocese earlier this year, which already caused a Bishop to resign.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Dromore Diocese which has already been slated as 'unfit for purpose', sees a Canon stand down

    Decommissioned, but has he been verifiably put beyond use?

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Decommissioned, but has he been verifiably put beyond use?

    Indeed, even the Pope man himself said this, one of the smallest dioceses in Ireland was 'unfit for purpose'. according to the newspaper article.

    Perhaps all priest should be interrogated with lie detector tests, probing questions, or even one of those 'personality trigger response machines' (via the local friendly Dianetics Centre) to see if they harbour 'dark intentions'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Indeed, even the Pope man himself said this...
    Which one? Apparently one pope has been decommissioned, but has he been verifiably ....


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Was on the radio this morning.
    Ann Crowe (58) had her first baby, Roger Declan, at Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork in February 1979.


    Ann Crowe (58) had her first baby, Roger Declan, at Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork in February 1979.

    Two days later, he was gone. She has not seen him since.

    Now living in Annaghdown, Co Galway, she believes her son was “stolen” and illegally adopted.

    She was 20 and living with her family in Galway city when she found out she was pregnant, in mid-1978. Her mother had died a few months earlier and when she told her father he brought her to Bessborough.

    “He just said one day, ‘we’re going for a drive’ and he brought me to Cork. I remember going up a big, long driveway and asking, ‘where are we going?’.” He replied, ‘you’re going in here for a while’.”

    Her experience at the home, run by the Sacred Heart Sisters, was “horrendous”, she says. “We were dirt to the nuns. I delivered my baby on 23rd February. I had him for 48 hours. I fed him and changed him. He was a fine healthy baby. After I’d fed him one of the nuns told me to go to the laundry on a message. I was gone a few hours and when I came back he was gone.

    “I said to the nun, ‘where’s my baby?’ And she didn’t answer me. I asked her again and she said, ‘he passed away.’ I screamed, ‘what do you mean? Where is he? He can’t be dead! He was a healthy baby two hours ago!’
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/adoption-controversy-my-son-was-stolen-and-illegally-adopted-1.3516650


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    Which one? Apparently one pope has been decommissioned, but has he been verifiably ....

    I'm not sure everyone got the 'canon' = 'cannon' joke. Ah well. I'll get me coat...

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Delirium wrote: »
    Just when I thought I couldn't be shocked any more by what religious organisations get up to, this story from Spain shows up in my news feed :(
    Spain to begin first ever Franco-era 'stolen babies' trial

    http://www.thejournal.ie/spain-stolen-babies-2-4091791-Jun2018/
    TheJournal wrote:
    AN 85-YEAR-old Spanish doctor will appear in a Madrid court today, the first person to go on trial over thousands of suspected cases of babies stolen from their mothers during the Franco era. In a dark and often overlooked chapter of General Francisco Franco’s 1939-75 dictatorship, the newborns of some left-wing opponents of the regime, or unmarried or poor couples, were removed from their mothers and adopted.

    New mothers were frequently told their babies had died suddenly within hours of birth and the hospital had taken care of their burials when in fact they were given or sold to another family. The practice began after Franco came to power after Spain’s 1936-39 civil war pitting left-wing Republicans against conservative Nationalists loyal to the general who was seeking to purge Spain of Marxist influence.

    Beginning in the 1950s, it was expanded to remove new newborns from poor families as well as illegitimate babies. The guiding principle was that the child would be better off raised by an affluent, conservative and devout Roman Catholic family. The system – which allegedly involved a vast network of doctors, nurses, nuns and priests – outlived Franco’s death in 1975 and carried on as an illegal baby trafficking network until 1987 when a new law regulating adoption was introduced. Campaigners estimate tens of thousands of babies may have been stolen from their parents over the decades.

    Eduardo Vela, who worked as a gynaecologist at the now-defunct San Ramon clinic in Madrid, is accused of taking Ines Madrigal, now aged 49, from her biological mother in 1969, and giving her to another woman who was falsely certified as her birth mother and who raised her. He has been charged with falsifying official documents, illegal adoption, unlawful detention and certifying a non-existent birth.

    Campaigners say at least 2,000 other complaints for similar cases have been filed with the courts but up until now none have gone to trial in a country still coming to terms with the dictator’s legacy. Cases have been shelved due to a lack of evidence or because the statute of limitations had passed. In 2013, an 87-year-old nun, who worked with Vela and allegedly controlled baby trafficking in Madrid, died before she was due to go on trial. Vela was interviewed briefly by police after a magazine in 1982 published interviews with several women who claimed they had been cheated of their babies after giving birth at San Ramon but the probe went nowhere.

    He told investigators in 2013 that as the director of the clinic he often signed papers without reading them. Interviewed by the BBC in 2011, Vela grabbed a metal crucifix and said: “I have always acted in his name. Always for the good of the children and to protect the mothers.” Madrigal, a railway worker who heads the Murcia branch of SOS Stolen Babies association, revived the case after reading an article in 2010 about the “stolen babies” affair which listed the San Ramon clinic where she was born as a focus for baby trafficking. She became suspicious that she was one of his victims and began investigating.

    While Madrigal said she does not expect Vela will provide answers about her origins when he appears in court, she told AFP she hoped his two-day trial would mark a turning point that leads the authorities to reopen investigations. “That would be my biggest achievement. That a door opens here, a door of hope,” she told AFP. Others are not as optimistic. Cristina Monacha, who never saw her baby boy after being told he had died just days after giving birth in Madrid in 1984, said all Vela “has to do is invoke his right to remain silent and it’s over”. She said she was never shown her son’s remains or his grave. “I was told to stop crying, that I already had a 15-month-old daughter that needed me, that I was young and would have other children,” she recalled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    robindch wrote: »
    Spain to begin first ever Franco-era 'stolen babies' trial

    http://www.thejournal.ie/spain-stolen-babies-2-4091791-Jun2018/

    Suprising, given the amnesty.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The Mormon church sure teaches some weird sh*t:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44644130


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robindch wrote: »
    An Australian archbishop has been found guilty of concealing child sex abuse back in the 1970's after his main defence - his diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease - was thrown out. The archbishop faces a maximum period of two years in jail with sentencing to be carried out at a later time. The archbishop has yet to decide whether to appeal the conviction.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/australia-archbishop-4026979-May2018/

    Australian archbishop given year’s detention for sex abuse cover-up
    An Australian archbishop, the most senior Catholic cleric in the world convicted of concealing child sex abuse in the church, was sentenced to a year in detention on Tuesday.

    Philip Wilson (67) will remain on bail while he is assessed by prison authorities for home detention, instead of jail, and will face court next month for a decision on where he will serve the sentence.

    “There is no remorse or contrition shown by the offender,” Newcastle court magistrate Robert Stone said of Wilson in emailed sentencing remarks.

    “The offender is a senior figure in one of the most respected institutions in our society . . . parishioners were betrayed most callously and cruelly because of their misplaced faith, trust and respect, not only by the perpetrator but as in this case by those who knew and concealed it.”

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    recedite wrote: »
    Unauthorised Bishop disgusted by unhygienic practices at the altar of a rural Cork church.


    eTYNxPX.jpg?1

    Whether this is ahem... "an internal matter" between consenting adults has yet to be determined. However no internal church action has been recorded since.
    https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/mass-continues-to-be-held-at-rural-church-where-sex-act-filmed-36879905.html

    BTW the photo above is purely for entertainment purposes, it does not purport to be from the actual scene.


    An update on this..... the semenarian involved appears to have gone on indefinite "personal leave". The exact difference between personal leave and impersonal leave is not revealed to us at this time.
    Since the footage emerged, the priest has been removed from the ministry for "personal leave" and has left the area where he was based on an extended career break.
    Some reports suggest he may have been engaged in a spot of innocent bridge-building with the local Anglican clergy. However that would be an ecumenical matter.
    The seminarian has a fetish about having gay sex in sacred places. He is also reputed to be sexually involved with a senior Church of Ireland cleric.
    I'm inclined to think the Anglican must have been heroically involved in the fight against the evil Gasconers, who are wilfully schismatic, and was "taking one for the team".
    But we'll have to wait for some more probing around in dark places before we can get to the bottom of this affair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    So I hear you're a racist now, Father...
    He literally got on the mic and said, ‘There will be no funeral, no Mass, no repast [funeral reception], everyone get the hell out of my church.’ He was disrespectful,” Chisley said of Briese. “He disrespected our family, he disrespected my mother.” Renetta Baker, also interviewed by Fox 5 and identified as a daughter of Hicks, said Briese was unholy.
    “You’re not a preacher. You’re not a pastor, you’re not a father of the Lord. You’re none of that. You’re the devil.”

    After everyone cleared out, it was just the pallbearers, he tried to explain it that he wasn’t a racist,” Theo Johnson, a pallbearer and cousin of Hicks, told the Enterprise, a newspaper covering the rural area southeast of Washington. “He said he put plaques on graves out there [in the cemetery], black and white people, he said he feeds the homeless...
    https://www.hairybaby.com/i-hear-youre-a-racist-father/


    There again, would you believe anything the Washington Post prints?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I see the nuns are selling babies once again, this time in India. Must be considered a perk of the job ;)

    https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/0717/979325-mother-teresa-india/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has called on Pope Francis to sack disgraced archbishop Philip Wilson,
    after he was convicted of covering up child sex abuse, as he still remains employed by the church.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/0719/979677-australia-turnbull-pope/

    Stepping down, but not resigned or sacked.
    Seems 'stepping down' is another word for 'retaining his position in the church'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    In Ireland they're not required to resign and are immune from criminal sanction.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Cardinal McCarrick, prominent US Catholic, resigns over abuse claims.

    Accused of sexually assaulting a teenager nearly 50 years ago. (5-0-fifty, that's half-a-century).
    US Church officials said the allegations were credible.
    An independent investigation also found accusations "credible and substantiated".

    Despite having officially retired, he has continued to attend events abroad, including those focusing on 'human rights issues'.
    Are all these lads free from any prosecution? If so would be ideal occupaiton for staging a diamond hiest, like in the movies.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44993221


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Cardinal McCarrick, prominent US Catholic, resigns over abuse claims.

    Accused of sexually assaulting a teenager nearly 50 years ago. (5-0-fifty, that's half-a-century).
    US Church officials said the allegations were credible.
    An independent investigation also found accusations "credible and substantiated".

    Despite having officially retired, he has continued to attend events abroad, including those focusing on 'human rights issues'.
    Are all these lads free from any prosecution? If so would be ideal occupaiton for staging a diamond hiest, like in the movies.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44993221
    McCarrick retired as Archbishop of Washington in 2006. That was a routine retirement, he having reached the standard age of retirement (which, for bishops, is 75). There would be nothing unusual in a retired archbishop (and active cardinal) continuing to participate in conferences, etc.

    Once he turned 80, which happened in 2010, he lost the right to vote in papal elections, after which his position as Cardinal became largely honorific - there were no actual duties or functions attached. It's that position from which he has now retired.

    He's not immune from prosecution, and is in fact being prosecuted in a canonical court. His clerical status (or former status) would not be an impediment to prosecuting him in the US courts. Some of the allegations made against him are not crimes, but one is - sexual assault of a minor. However the incidents occurred 47 years ago, and the relevant statute of limitations (New York) prevents them from being prosecuted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Once he turned 80, which happened in 2010, he lost the right to vote in papal elections, after which his position as Cardinal became largely honorific - there were no actual duties or functions attached. It's that position from which he has now retired.
    He hasn't "retired" he has "resigned". There is a difference.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He's not immune from prosecution, and is in fact being prosecuted in a canonical court.
    I don't think he is being "prosecuted" via canon law yet. He has apparently been given a house, housekeepers, and asked to live a life of prayer and penance. All this in advance of any canon law trial. Its fairly obvious they are hoping he will die off soon, similar to Cardinal Law, which will bring the whole process to an early closure.


    The history of this guy is interesting. It seems he was always known as a homosexual, a liberal, and a bit of a social justice warrior. he was involved with the US bishops in promoting immigration, and with the Vatican in their
    Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerants.

    He fell from favour under Pope Benny, but came back to prominence under Pope Frank. At one stage McCarrick met Fidel Castro, and the current pope is also obviously very interested in Cuba and is himself a product of that whole slightly "left wing" Latin American version of catholicism.



    So, all in all, if it wasn't for his occasional fondness for fondling altar boys, this guy would be seen as a model priest in terms of 21st century liberal values.
    RC canon law of course sees both homosexuality and paedophilia as "intrinsically disordered" but sees neither as being too big a deal.
    This contrasts with modern liberal secular ideas which celebrate one and vilify the other. So its a tricky one for the Vatican. Its easiest for everyone if he just pops his clogs ASAP.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    He has apparently been given a house, housekeepers, and asked to live a life of prayer and penance.

    It's just another chapter in a life of constant self-sacrifice and self-denial isn't it?

    RC canon law of course sees both homosexuality and paedophilia as "intrinsically disordered" but sees neither as being too big a deal.
    This contrasts with modern liberal secular ideas which celebrate one and vilify the other.

    Well, the whole thing about consenting adults would have something to do with that...

    Life ain't always empty.



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